Overcoming Google Core Updates with Evergreen Content with Steven Khanna of WhitePress

John Wright: Welcome to the affiliate BI podcast today.

We’re chatting with Steven Khanna, who’s the head of English markets at white press. He’s also content creator, and I want to pass it back to you, Stephen, a Tell us a bit more about you and welcome to the show.

Steven Khanna: Thank you, John. Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me. Yeah, my journey or my relatively very new ish journey into SEO.

I’ve only been in SEO like a couple of years. Funny story, me having drinks on a Friday night in Poland where I live and my boss, Tom, who’s the head of international growth, we just ended up chatting. I had a bit of interest anyways within the digital marketing space and all of that. We connected and he ended up offering saying, have you ever heard about SEO?

The honest answer was no. And he tried explaining it to me and it took a while. Anyways, we had several meetings backwards and forwards. Here I am two years later. Leading the English markets here by Ypress, getting the brand name out there, going on webinars and podcasts all around the world, ending up as speakers, as an expert which knows all of, who knows all about link building, but SEO is such, such a massive space.

You know that John, there’s so much to learn every day. Which kind of ties back to my past experience, which has been done in restaurants, Michelin star restaurants back in the UK, 20 plus years, I’m actually a wine sommelier by trade and all of that, but that’s exactly what happens there in SEO in a strange way.

Cause we’ve all saying in the restaurant world day, you guys think you’ve actually. Conquered that industry, karma is going to come and hit you so bad. And that’s exactly what I love about SEO. There is so much new to learn about every day because quite simply, you could never predict what Google is going to do the next morning, the next day.

We all know what’s been going on. We currently still in a massive rollout of the update going on, which clearly has shook the industry, this is the biggest update, the most severe update I’ve seen, whether it’s manual penalties being given out to AI influencers, people being targeted, but then on the other end of the spectrum, they’re also targeting.

proper white hat link building agencies or sites who’ve never ever done anything which is remotely shady. And poor guys, even their websites are being targeted. So who knows how the industry would change, by the time we finish March.

John Wright: Yeah. Even by the time we finish this episode, it’s so much is changing and we’ll definitely get into that a bit further.

There seems to be a Pretty big SEO community happening in Poland. What’s going on down there?

Steven Khanna: Yeah. Poland’s been a bit of a revolution when it comes to, the SEO knowledge, and I remember five, six years previously, they all used to be in terms of ranking. There was hardly any technical SEO going on.

I was all about buying links, PBNs and all of that. But since that time I’ve seen people like Robert Nekchow who’s, the biggest Polish legend here, and I’ve learned a lot from that gentleman where the knowledge of the Polish SEOs here is just off the charts. And we’ve seen that. I saw it as a of evidence when white press has been doing our conferences the last couple of years in poland and we hold some big ones So people like the kyle russ and the matt diggity’s Or the charles floats when they came in they were all spellbound They’re like mate the seo space in poland is just growing Rapidly the knowledge level people have and now with ai being such a big factor in our life.

Not just seo we white press has a habit of buying certain strategic tools out there We just bought another platform which is called senuto, which is going to be very quickly As a competition to ahrefs and semrush quite big in the polish market and their CEO Damien an absolute legend.

I’ve had chats with him and trust me after two minutes. I feel an idiot the kind of knowledge this guy has how combining ai into seo is just mind boggling So I always knew that the polish seo space or within the Internet industry, the Polish community here is really switched on really clever cookies.

And now they’ve upped their game when it comes to how internationally SEO is perceived. And I can see similar things, when it comes to how to rank a website, being very white hat, keeping up with the Google algo updates. I see the Polish community doing exactly the same. So I think I’m privileged that I Me as in being in white press and we’re predominantly a polish company.

That’s where our head office is. That’s where I am right now I think i’m in the right place at the right time when it comes to a riding the growth The polish su community is experiencing and me being in a lot of ways The face of white press when it comes to English markets, I can combine and leverage that knowledge I’m getting from the local Polish community, combining it with all the international players who, I’m good mates with, whether it’s the Charlie’s or the Kyle Roos or the Matt Diggity’s, you know, and being learning from both ends.

So I couldn’t be more blessed to be honest.

John Wright: That’s that app you said it was Senuto?

Steven Khanna: Senuto. It’s spelled as S E N U T O. Yeah,

John Wright: I’ve heard about this recently and, yeah, just to hear that there’s anyone that wants to be crazy enough to go up against the Ahrefs and the SEMrush, but I think the community’s been asking for a little bit more competition.

Steven Khanna: Correct. Correct. That’s the idea. And, we’ve obviously invested serious money in there to get some more servers out there, start crawling the English markets and also, I would tell your audience, wait six months and you’ll see Sanuto’s name popping up a lot.

John Wright: We’re going to have to chat after the show about that app.

So I’m in Malta right now and I’m talking with a lot of gambling affiliates and the talk of town isn’t just updates and people getting slammed all over the place. But a lot of the SEO tactics that we’ve been hearing for quite some while are like like the parasite SEO where Outlook India just went massive with not only selling links and how much they were selling for, but do you think with the changes where Outlook India is put back down to earth, do you think the power is going back to the affiliates where they don’t have to feel threatened by big news media sites like USA Today that are just going to turn into affiliate sites?

Steven Khanna: Yes, I agree. And I think this is a long time coming when it came to Parasite SEO. I’ve heard plenty of experts who have supported Parasite SEO, but obviously for the right reasons, even though the tactics a bit, grayish light, black hair, whatever. But clearly Google’s making a statement here, and this is just my hunch, my gut instinct, but mixed with a lot of knowledge and opinions I’ve heard from people since the update.

Google wants to create that equilibrium, that balance again. And I think that talk about, oh, AI is going to take over and parasite SEO is such an easy way to cheat Google algorithms and I don’t think they mind that. It’s when. Those things start becoming a lot bigger. The big daddy comes in, cracks the whip and gets people back in, in the line, so to speak.

Only time will tell John, whoever’s making those predictions, whether it’s myself or all the other big names, you can’t really predict what Google’s going to do a month from now, two months from now, how the next update’s going to look like. However. Us in the SEO space, it’s all about predicting what the patterns are and seeing how it is.

So based on ground reality, as of today, I agree with you, the power is going to get back to, the affiliate owners and all of that way, the Outlook India and all the other websites, which were perhaps overdoing it with the parasite SEO. I think they’ll have to take a deep breath re strategize again and see how they come up with a newer strategy, which is more slightly Google friendly, if I can say that.

John Wright: What would you say in your mind is like the future of link building and what would you describe as evergreen link building strategies?

Steven Khanna: Yeah no matter every six months, I hear that links would have no value or link building is dead, but let’s face it.

Links would remain one of the most important factors, if not the top one, but at least, number two, number three, number four, major ranking factor. How I see the link building industry changing since this update and beyond, I think digital PR is going to play a very important role. in this, acquiring links through high quality content, even though the turnaround times might be longer.

I think that’s how it’s going to end up panning out at least till the end of 2024. I’ll be honest, the link vendors out there might suffer a bit of a hit where everyone’s scared, our inventory as well within white press, a percentage, a very small percentage was affected by a pandemic.

Thank God. And I kind of kudos to my leadership where we vetting sites in an extremely intrinsic level, not much has happened to white press. People are still spending money and all of that. But I think why I’m interested, it’s actually a great question because before the update.

People were pivoting from guest post, between guest posting, but then they were investing a lot of money into niche edits, because clearly a page is ranking, you’re not taking a shot in the dark, you, you do when you, and you gain image at value, the needle moves compared to a guest posting.

But now the updates happened. I want to see how people react to it. In fact, the feedback or the meetings I’ve had with clients, not that any of my client’s websites were hit. They’re all doing what they’re supposed to be doing. People have been coming back to me and say, Steve, what do you think?

What should be our next step? quarterly plan now, even though we had a plan in place, how should we address the link building thing? And I kept telling them, I went back to one thing and I said, guys, you kept asking me for websites to link with, which had a stable or increasing traffic. And I kept telling you, listen, majority of them, there’s a lot of AI content being used there to scale, which is fooling the algorithm.

Start considering real websites, even though it might show a bit of a downward traffic trend. And those websites, The ones which have not been hit, but still have a bit of a downward traffic trend, in my opinion, are the real websites. Because clearly if that was abused in terms of AI, in terms of shady link building tactics or PBNs and all of that, they were the first ones to be hit.

So those are interesting conversations I’m currently having with a bit of my eye. On the update and see how it happens. So probably early days for me to put my finger on it as to how it might pan out, but obviously been doing link building for a while. I think people will still invest a lot in link building cause there is a major ranking factor, but I think they’ll pivot a lot more towards niche edits slash digital PR and then play a waiting game and see, okay, what happens next?

John Wright: For keeping your clients happy, I guess it’s not too difficult if you’re focusing on the evergreen stuff as opposed to, yeah, maybe there’s nothing wrong with the Parasite SEO and the AI content where it’s trending up, but like you said, if it’s not really stable and you already know that there’s going to be a Maybe no future for that.

It’s a, you don’t want to be on the wrong side of the fence and I’m sure some people are riding that wave, but a lot of people, they’re just actually having their business taken from under them and maybe they should have had the evergreen link building strategy.

Steven Khanna: I agree. I agree.

And I was having a chat with James Dooley the other day and he said, mate, a lot of people are getting it wrong. It’s not. in the entirety that every site built on AI or used AI content, which has been, it’s not the AI content, which has been really hit or the AI strategy. It’s the spam, which people have put out and literally scaled it.

With no human interference at all, some of the content creation we do in WordPress, we use some AI tools just to get ideas, just to get frameworks and guidelines, but clearly we need, a human involvement in there in terms of editing and all of that. I think as it always happens with human evolution, every time there’s a new technology which comes in, which shortens our work, people would tend to abuse it.

You forget SEO. You look at everything else in the past, before, before when the first iPhones were launched, why do we all complain now about, our younger generation, everyone’s addicted to our, to the telephones, to screens and all of that. But that’s because.

By nature, we are a bit lazy. Every time we see technology doing most of our jobs, people would do it. And on top of that, I think a lot of business owners probably got a bit greedy as well. I’ve heard horror stories where copywriters have been sacked overnight because they thought AI is the game of fantastic AI tools out there.

I’m going to thrash out content. Everything’s fine. Google’s not going to do anything. There we go. Google woke up and said, ah, mate, it ain’t happening any longer. AI would still content creation would still be used a lot, but I think now people would be a lot more careful with the human involvement.

However, I’ve also seen plenty of other content creation agencies who probably predicted this and they were wise enough not to use any AI at all. And I’ve had several conversations with my clients or other SEO experts in the UK and they said, mate, I was ahead of time. They’ve still had a full team of copywriters there and everything just works fine.

John Wright: Yeah. It’s interesting. You talk about digital PR as being like the thing that’s really important. And I think there’s some insight behind it, which is, if you’re going to do digital PR, the implication is that you actually have to put a lot of Upfront work. And when you look at Parasite SEO and AI content, it’s not upfront work.

It’s a little bit of work trying to get the maximum gain as opposed to putting in a lot of effort. Maybe not knowing what, where it’s going to pay off, but it just seems like not a lot of people are doing digital PR. And when you listen to the tactics of people like, Gabrielle Covey and Ferry Casoni, it’s I get excited hearing about some of the strategies they use for.

For building links in a quality manner.

Steven Khanna: Yeah. For me, ferry in particular, the guy’s a genius. What he does with with his digital PR and not just him, I’m seeing several other names pop up, Chris Elli and Nick Pigs from Link I. These boys have, a similar view of building their digital PR links.

They smash out links left and center. Another name to watch out for really, but what Ferry has done is just change the industry. Does it take a longer period in terms of turnaround times? Of course it does, but that’s exactly what Google wants is lots of.

Homework being done, lots of fantastic content being created, innovative ways which don’t break Google’s guidelines in order to get that maximum link juice as we all talk about in order to move the needle. So I’m a big fan of Ferry. He’ll be actually visiting and speaking at our conference in Poland in May.

I’ve met him a couple of times, he’s become a good mate. Yeah, I’d love to learn more from Ferry, not to mention all his parody videos he makes, stroke, stroke, a genius.

John Wright: Yeah, in terms of content creation, which, you’ve got a lot of experience on and that’s more your skill set.

It just seems for building the right content, you have to. It’s not just a, putting in the time and effort. It’s you need to get a story out. And sometimes the story is tactics like what fairy does, or sometimes you’ve got to just do some research and saying, I’m going to compile this guide or create a data set that doesn’t exist.

And yeah, we don’t see enough of that. I’ve heard in the field of marketing space that the publishers they’re begging for these data stories. And whenever you have one there, they can take it and they can spin it into a lot of stuff.

Steven Khanna: I agree. I agree. And end of the day, that’s what Google wants.

Maximum user engagement. Content being pushed out, which is useful based on the keywords of, an end user is typing in. Yes, I agree. And that’s why that human involvement is so important mixed with a bit of AI in there. You need to do the research. You need to come up with amazing angles there in order to, keep that user.

On that page, on that website for long. And I think people like Ferry, people like Chris, people like Gabriella, these guys are the ones who do it really well. Yeah, but it’ll be interesting as how it’s going to pan out. Because if that’s what is the future of link building in maturity, in terms of digital PR, the competition is just going to grow because a lot of people will move their budgets into digital PR, which means.

There’s more competition, but is there enough talent out there in the market to absorb all those budgets as well? Yes, these are troubled times people are talking about, but for me, out of every chaos, there’s an opportunity which arises. And I’m in a way, a lot of I’m in a way excited, commiserations to people, of course, who their websites have been hit.

And I’m a hundred percent with them. We were all in the same SEO space in the SEO community. We help each other. Yet I’m looking at what the future holds after this chaotic period. Yeah, but

John Wright: I look at a company like WhitePress and go the whole ecosystem, you have a business that could scale and weather any storm.

So I think you’re always going to be in a fortunate position there.

Steven Khanna: Thanks, John. Thanks. Yeah. Our platform is amazing. The idea was to give a hundred percent transparency to all the SEO agencies or the brands out there wanting to do link building. And that was the idea to scale it. We started the company 11 years ago and being a really small startup in Poland to now operating in 30 different countries 12 physical offices around the world.

We publish upwards of what 15, 000 niche edits every month, but all done with precision, all done as close to white hat as possible so that, we don’t end up hitting our clients websites every time there’s an algo update. Yeah. But of course, it comes with a lot of blood, sweat and tears, it does come with a lot of human engagement.

We got 200 people working, that sometimes it’s just a beast on its own, trying to manage expectations, people working remotely, people in the office, it, it’s not a, it’s not an easy ball game when it comes to, you know, doing 30, 40 odd million euros turnover annually.

But yeah, can’t be more excited though. Yeah.

John Wright: I can almost relate as a company of 10 people, but that’s a whole other ball game. So yeah, I wanted to ask you about what do you see as the current trends of like niche edits versus guest posting?

Steven Khanna: Yeah. As I was saying, we saw after the previous September update and then speeding up a bit more after the November update last year, where people started pushing more towards niche edits.

And I think that was driven a bit through by the other SEO influencers out there in the market, especially after the Chiang Mai conference. I wasn’t. Really listening to the talks too much because Ypress had a booth outside. But most of the conversations I had with some of our new clients, they all kept saying there were a couple of presentations there within the link building space where people kept talking, what niche edit seems to be a lot more.

safer option and a quicker option in terms of moving the needle. I still think that’s going to happen and I think it’s going to happen with the percentage where people start investing up to 70 percent of their quarterly budget into niche edits. Probably go 15 percent guest posts and the other 15, maybe 20 percent take a bit on niche edits and start doing a bit more digital PR as well.

But in my opinion, these are the trends we’ve seen. Over a period of six to eight months. And I think niche edits, if I was a brand or I was an SEO guy representing a client of mine, niche edits anytime, any day.

John Wright: And my thoughts maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong, or maybe I’m on the right line of thinking.

Would you say a niche edit was, is more like the bottom of the funnel content (BOFU) where, like a guest post is typically your, Pseudo top of funnel (TOFU)?

Steven Khanna: Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree. I agree with that. Um, guest posting. Yes. You get a lot more freedom. You can, create a content the way you want to niche edits.

There are restrictions there for sure. But I think in terms of value for money, the ROI and everything, I would still pick a niche edits. I know some of the biggest names in the industry who run multi million pound agencies out there. Where link building is an active part of their revenue stream.

They all do niche edits, all of them. Yeah.

John Wright: Going full circle back to Parasite SEO, or maybe it’s not even Parasite SEO. It’s like I created a subreddit or a Reddit channel for affiliate software. And obviously this was a week ago where. This was all flying high. Everyone was talking about how much traffic Quora and Reddit are getting.

And I still think they are, but it’s funny that as of a couple of days ago, the traffic it was flying and then it went down. We just still say stuff like this is a good strategy. And just to add a bit more context the Reddit channel I created was more of a bottom of funnel.

And I actually think it’s getting real and legit traffic, which is. I’m actually excited about doing something that looks like it’s small potatoes, but actually has more value.

Steven Khanna: Yeah. Proceed with caution is what I would say, things which have been working, which are still working. It all comes down to relevance end of the day, if the end results are what your channel and your strategy demands is matching what Google guidelines are, especially during the update, I would say, continue doing it.

I’ve been having chats with Charles float recently. We’ve been talking a lot about the Reddit and all of that. And he says exactly the same thing. Please. Keep doing if you’re not hit, as of now, and even if you have a bit of a downward trend, as long as it’s not falling off a cliff, the traffic, then clearly there’s no point in changing or reinventing the wheel.

So I would recommend do what you’re doing, but proceed with caution. So I got

John Wright: the next question is more about you guys with White Press, you’re always supporting the SEO community. And I had Mark Wright on as a guest who said the secret of his success. Was being able to sell SEO and simplify it in a way that kind of makes sense.

And he said, a lot of SEOs they just go straight into too much jargon and they’re trying to show off, but it ends up having the opposite effect. So what would you say are good tips for people to sell SEO to people, given that you might be helping others maybe go a little bit away from white press, but it’s clearly worked for you guys.

Steven Khanna: Yes. Now, that’s where my past experience come in, comes into this picture. So me, running restaurants, Michelin stars back in the UK doing a bit more B2B sales in a completely different industry, coming in with new set of ideas. And I’m with Mark a hundred percent SEO. The moment you talk about SEO subconsciously, you start thinking of the matrix.

So most of the technical jargon, you’ve got to break it down into very simplified terms where people are on the same frequency as you are, but you’ve got to show your, the ROI these people would get. End of the day, yes, we need to build traffic. Yes, we need to improve the authority score on a website, but what they really want is for us to make money for them.

So once your sales pitch is including that factor where they could actually gain a lot of revenue with guaranteed case studies to show, but it’s all done in a clear, concise non technical jargon, people would connect. And one of the biggest reasons for my success for two years with YPress, and I’m talking some of the biggest agencies, names and brands.

Giving their campaigns to me is I’ve kept it very simple and I was reviewing this two days ago last week. We all remember when I used to do discovery onboarding calls or demo calls of our platform, the first six months I used to take 30 minutes. Now I take eight minutes because I’ve cut off all the other jargon.

I was strained on by my technical SEOs there in YPress because I quickly realized people don’t want to listen to all of that. Make it very simple, easy, because the more you talk and more you explain, the more questions pop up and you don’t want them. You want to be leading a conversation where it simply says, that’s the amount I need to pay because that’s the pain point.

I’m going to fix this pain point. It’s going to take this much of time. And the end result is you can expect this much. And if you can all put those kind of four factors or explanation categories in very simple English, or any other language you speak it, it does the job. And that’s one thing I speak to a lot of SEOs around the world.

When we go on conferences, when I’m having a chat with him, I said, guys, people don’t want to feel stupid as Mark was saying.

John Wright: That’s exactly it. That’s brilliant.

Steven Khanna: Yeah, it’s about having that same frequency, but then 5 percent more to still be tuned into you and following the moment.

There’s a disparity between what your understanding and knowledge is compared to what they are. They’ll just switch off. It’s simple as that. And on top of that, your personality plays such a big part, Mark’s an amazing guy, people who are within sales, you still have to do your deliverables.

You still have to deliver the KPIs and everything. I’ve got a simple formula. People need to like you because if they like you, they’ll trust you. And if they trust you, they’ll give you their business. But that journey from the first call to them liking you. That’s the most, that’s the toughest part. And a lot of SEOs out there perhaps don’t have that switch in them.

And there are lots of little things, responding to emails, to texts, to phone calls within 10, 15 minutes, being on the phone. for them all the time when things go wrong, even though, your client might have made that mistake rather than pushing it back onto them. You take that ownership and responsibility, dish out favors to them.

All that comes into relationship building, which then drives the business. End of the day, we’re all humans, emotional animals. If you hit the emotional strings in an honest way, people would like you.

John Wright: Yeah, and the irony for that is when they, when you clicked with them in the emotional sense, they’ll use logic to rationalize why they’re doing business with you, even though it’s actually emotional.

Correct. So I’m going to take a lot of notes here that what you’ve said is great for SEOs, but I actually believe the same is true for SAS companies like ourselves. And I’m going to spend a little bit of time later today, looking at the white press website to go, how do let’s reverse engineer their success strategies.

Then I actually, I’m sure I’ll be able to copy a lot of ideas that would apply to SAS companies.

Brilliant. So yeah, I just want to finish off with what’s next for you and what do you have aspirations for this year and next?

Steven Khanna: This is going to be challenging, even though it’s exciting. And then Google update has just, thrown a spanner in the works there.

Obviously lots of conferences this year because WhitePress started its own events brand called SEO Vibes. We’ve got 18 events planned this year. I’ve got no idea how we’re going to pull it off. I’m obviously not going to all the 18 cause I’m just going to end up getting divorced because my wife’s going to kick me out, but I’m going to all the biggest English ones all the international ones.

So whether it’s the Vietnam Matt Singer’s event early next month Robert Nichols, one happening end of this month. We. We’ll be doing another big one with a partner in Cyprus in October, which is going to be all about link building. We’ve potentially signed another partner to perhaps crack the Asian slash Chinese market.

Cause we know that’s where the money is at this stage. It’s all about scaling up, getting to my annual targets this year. To be honest, learning more about SEO, the technical SEO. Part of things, your topical mapping, your semantic SEOs and all of that, asking millions of questions to Cori, for example, again, a good mate of mine, probably attending a few more courses.

I’ve enjoyed my journey so far within the space of link building, but SEO is so much more. And I think I’m at that point where at least within my markets, my business is safe and strong and I’ve got strong sales leaders in place. It’s now me elevating a, my own brand by going to several events, obviously white press leveraging through it, but also for me to get more knowledge where, you know, when I can easily walk into podcasts and webinars and talk in a very convincing manner about the technical SEO part of stuff.

So yeah, and then what happens 2025, 26, who knows, mate, life’s a mystery.

John Wright: So my last question, which I ask every guest, and you could probably literally answer with one word, which is Senuto, as these types of SEO tools are, In my mind, the original business intelligence tools and affiliate marketing.

So what do you see as the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence?

You can say Senuto and just leave it there.

Steven Khanna: I would probably say Senuto then cause this seems to bridge the gap between these two industries, but if I had to dig in slightly more deeper

John Wright: Yeah, maybe the, to just intersect. Cause it’s I know with Ahrefs and I’m sure SEMrush does it. And I wouldn’t be surprised Senuto probably has it. These tools are so advanced that you can even export the stuff into Looker Studio and build even crazier dashboards. I just think that what we have today is.

So immense and powerful. It’s like, where do you start? But we’re seeing people like where I take these things and turn them into not just businesses, but like sub industries within that

Steven Khanna: SEO. Yeah. But I think with, within the affiliate marketing space and I could be wrong, I get a feeling again, as an outsider, cause I still consider myself as an outsider within the SEO space being only in it for two years, affiliate marketing does need a bit of a revolution.

It. In my opinion, it needs a lot more technology being interfaced into affiliate sites where the journey becomes a lot more seamless, whether it’s onboarding continuation, more revenue generation leads, whatever that might be apart from Senuto, I think in general, anyways, the industry’s screaming out for an absolutely revolutionary tool, which will just help affiliate marketers.

I still feel affiliate marketing at the moment. Times becomes very conservative. There’s this, whatever knowledge is there, it’s never given out. It’s a bit more secretive, so to speak, as compared to the genuine SEO community. But, and that could be because of the lack of tools out there.

John Wright: I think you hit the nail on the head there.

It’s a, I do agree what you said is true. It you’re saying it as if you’ve been in affiliate marketing for 10 to 20 years, but it’s, I see it from my side and I agree. I think the only tools we do have are the SEO tools, but I think there’s a, there’s definitely a lot more that’s missing and you’re right about yeah, affiliate marketing today is a little bit elementary.

It’s tracking links, it’s content. That’s the basics, but where’s it leveling up? You go to the SEO space and the conversations, there are two different worlds, worlds apart, correct?

Steven Khanna: Correct. So John, maybe that could be one of your new projects. Who knows, you can start working.

John Wright: We are, we already have a couple of those projects in mind.

So I’ll share them and I’m sure we’re going to run into each other at a few of these SEO conferences. So I’m going to pass it back to you, Steven, to say thank you for doing this. And how can people get ahold of you? And we’ll also include those links in the show notes.

Steven Khanna: Brilliant. Many thanks for having me here.

I’m very active on LinkedIn Stephen K. Or just go on to WhitePress’s website, hit on the English landing page there. You’ll see my telephone number there. I’m on hundreds of WhatsApp groups when it comes to SEO communities. Just I’m sure someone would have my telephone number anyways, but LinkedIn is the easiest route to get to me.

Brilliant. Thank you so much. Brilliant. Look, thanks. Thanks a lot for having me. Cheers, John.